tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN March 20, 2017 9:00pm-10:01pm PDT
sorkts are in the clear. there's a lot to cover, but one of the oddest aspects of today was how the white house responded to what was a pretty bad day for the president. even while the hearing was unfolding, the white house was selectively live tweeting the hearings. describing testimony by the fbi director as flat-out false. here's the tweet. the nsa and fbi tell congress that russia did not influence electoral process. this isn't true either. what sean spicer said today about the campaign's former chairman. >> there's been discussion of paul manafort who played a very limited role for a limited amount of time. >> sean spicer trying to minimize paul manafort's role. that is not the way he was described by the people close to candidate trump and also mr. trump himself.
watch. >> i have fantastic people. i have paul manafort. >> i brought paul in because a very smart friend of mine who knew him very well said he is fantastic. >> paul manafort remains as our chairman. >> paul manafort. >> mr. manafort. >> bringing in a professional like paul helped us grow the campaign. and we need ten more of these. everything ball did for the campaign was one less thaneg i had to do. >> that's a small number of items we could have put together. extraordinary day, something we haven't seen happen to a sitting president. candidate trump ran on the promise of ending business as usual in washington. what we saw and heard today is not business as usual in washington. it was extraordinary. pamela brown tonight sets the stage. >> reporter: fbi director james comey wasting no time dropping this bombshell near the beginning of the hearing. >> the fbi, as part of our counterintelligence mission, is
investigating the russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. and that includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the trump campaign and the russian government and whether there was any coordination between the campaign and russia's efforts. >> reporter: and in a rebuke to the president, comey said there's no evidence to support the president's claim that former president obama had wires tapped inside trump tower. >> i have no information that suppor supports those tweets, and we have looked carefully inside the fbi. the department of justice has asked me to share with you that the answer is the same for the department of justice and all its components. >> reporter: the head of the nsa, admiral mike rogers, also denying a report repeated by the white house that the obama administration asked british intelligence to spy on the trump campaign. >> did you ever request that your counterparts should wiretap mr. trump on behalf of president obama? >> no, sir.
nor would i. that would be expressly against the construct of the agreement that's been in place for decades. >> republicans avoided asking about trump's wiretapping claims. instead focusing on whether or not laws were broken and reporting about ousted national security adviser michael flynn's conversations with the russian ambassador that were caught on surveillance and insinuating former obama appointees could be the source of the leaks. >> do you know whether director clapper knew of the name of the u.s. citizen that appeared in "the washington post"? >> i can't say in this forum. >> would director brennan have access to that name? >> in some circumstances, yes. >> reporter: congressman dowdy providing no evidence to back up his accusations. >> democrats zeroed in, laying out a circumstantial argument about what they believe may have transpired. >> it wasn't simply that the russians had a negative preference against hillary
clinton, they also had a positive preference for donald trump. >> correct. >> would they have a open preference for a candidate who -- >> comey tried to avoid going any further on what the investigation has uncovered. >> not going to talk about a particular person here today. i can't answer that. >> reporter: perhaps anticipating outcry from democrats, comey sought to explain the difference between today's testimony and when he spoke about the investigation into hillary clinton's use of a private server. >> some folks may want to make comparisons. where the fbi has spoken about the details of some investigations. but please keep in mind, that those 1r68d the details of completed investigations. our ability to share details with the congress and the american people is limited when those investigations are still open. which i hope makes sense. >> pamela brown joins us now. did he give any indication how long this investigation is
expected to continue? >> he was asked that question, anderson, and he simply said he doesn't know. he did say that the investigation began this past july, but one official i spoke with says counterintelligence investigations such as this, can take a while. in fact, there have been cases where it takes years. as one official i spoke to said, it's rare that intelligence is conclusive. normally they're dealing with shades of gray, it's not black and white. for example, there could be a source that claims something, but they have a tough time corroborating that information. so it's unclear, frankly, when this will wrap up. it could some time. which could mean there will be a cloud hanging over the trump white house for some time. but it also could mean, given how these counterintelligence investigations work, that the smoking gun that people -- some people, including some democrats on the hill are looking for, may not come to fruition. we just don't know how this is going to play out. anderson? >> yeah, maybe no, no fire. thank you very much. the president is in louisville,
kentucky right now, speaking at a campaign-style rally. ryan nobles is there. the president is speaking right now. has he responded yet to the fbi director's comments? >> reporter: he has not, anderson. and it's pretty interesting, because he's been speaking now for more than 25 minutes to a raucous crowd in louisville, kentucky. no mention whatsoever about the hearings that took place today in washington, and the president himself has not responded directly at all. the only response we've seen to this point has been a series of tweets from the official potus account which could have been run by anybody at the white house, where throughout the hearing they were refuting some of the claims made and also taking out of context some of the things that were said as well. as i said before, anderson, 25 minutes into this speech, no mention by the president at all about these serious accusations that were leveled this morning at that hearing. >> we should point out, the tweet we talked about was from the official potus tweet page, and they still have not
corrected that tweet, even though it's been multpointed ou them, multiple times that it's not true. how has the white house responded to the fact that no wiretap evidence has been found? >> they're still not backing down. which is interesting. you have republicans and democrats in the house and senate, now you have the fbi director himself coming out, saying that there's no evidence to support this wiretap. but the press secretary, sean spicer, did not back down. listen to what he said today in his press briefing. >> he said that there's no information to support the allegations that the president made against president obama. >> at this time. >> so is the president prepared to withdraw that accusation and apologize to the president? >> no. we started a hearing. it's still ongoing. and as chairman nunes mentioned, this is one in a series of hearings that will be happening. i think there's, as i noted last week, there's also a lot of interesting news coming out of that in terms of the activities
that have gone on to reveal the information on american citizens that have been part of this particular general flynn. there's a lot of things that aren't be covered in this hearing that i think are interesting. that, you know, since it's ongoing, i'll leave that for now. >> reporter: so as you heard there, anderson, not beiacking away from the wiretap claim. but they did seem to distance themselves from some of the talk about interaction between the campaign and russia. particularly paul manafort, who sean spicer said he had a limited role. he played a major role in this campaign, but perhaps in an effort by the white house to distance themselves from someone who played a central role in any interaction that the campaign may have had with the russian government. anderson? >> ryan nobles, thank you very much. obviously president trump talks about the hearings, we'll bring
those comments to you. paul manafort just put out a statement denying a role in the dnc hack or a release of information from it. he said in part, quote, he's never spoken with any russian government officials or anyone who claimed to be involved in the attack. we'll monitor president trump's remarks and as soon as he talks about today's events, we'll go to him live. with that, joining us now is cnn national security analyst, steve hall, and a veteran of russian operations. new york and washington correspondent ryan lizza, david gergen, gloria borger, and senior contributor jeffrey lord. jen psaki, paul beghala and matt lewis. gloria, no matter how the white house tries to spin it, it was a tough day for the president. >> i think you could argue, and i would, that it was the worst day of his 60-day presidency, and that the road ahead is pretty perilous for him. because they now have this big
cloud hanging over the white house. and today was the day that donald trump's own fbi director said the president was wrong, that barack obama did not wiretap his phone, and the fbi director also made it very clear that the fbi had this ongoing investigation into trump officia officials potentially communicating with russians about the hack. so that was not fake news started by democrats as donald trump says. so on both counts, his own fbi director kinda swatted him down. and the white house and sean spicer may be saying nothing has changed, or that the hearings are still ongoing, but i think a lot changed today. >> david, watching the hearings, it was almost like there were two different hearings going on. republicans asking questions about leaks, more or less, overwhelmingly and democrats focusing on allegations of russian hacking or allegations
of cooperation. >> i think that was quite intentional. they had game plans on each side. the democrats would have been better off giving more attention to leaks, to show they take it seriously. but the republicans in turn should have given much more attention to the russian allegations. those are much more foundational. but when the day was over, i agree with gloria, president trump has taken hits below the water line. we've never had a sitting president accuse another president of a high crime, an impeachable offense, and then have that statement rebuked by his own justice department. thank goodness for checks and balances, because this was another time when the system worked to show us, mr. president, you gotta stop doing this, because you're shredding your own credibility. but i also agree, this could go on for a long time now. and i do think it greatly complicates the challenges of
governing when you have this cloud over your head. listen, i was in the white house during watergate, and i can just tell you, that was a much, much bigger, and this is not watergate, but there's that same sense of, you know, we don't even know what the truth is inside the white house. none of us knows and we don't know where this goes. it leaves you with a great pit in your stomach. >> and in terms of the cloud hanging over, ryan, the white house continuing to have this line of there's nothing to see, we didn't see anything today, nothing new happened today -- oh and by the way, what comey said -- they're misrepresenting what comey said, now they're saying paul manafort wasn't paul manafort, that the guy we interviewed and knew and listened to wasn't there much at all. >> it was like they didn't see the hearing or saw one that was different than what we watched. it's not quite watergate, but today is the first day where you
have to think, this could be something on that level. you have the fbi confirming an espionage investigation involving the white house. and when asked -- look, i know, we shouldn't read too much into his no comments. but when asked if the president himself was personally under investigation, the fbi director said he couldn't comment on that. so the gravity of this can't be understated. and i think the fact that comey was so reluctant to answer anything, suggests the depth of this investigation. if this was a nothing investigation, comey would have been more forth coming. so i think that, and the response from the white house, to triple down on the original tweet that now the fbi director, the leadership of both intelligence committees, the brits, the dni, anyone who knows about the intelligence concerning obama and his potential to surveil trump has now said that was false. and the white house still won't admit that.
>> steven, we heard from a lot of democrats on that committee today who were basically using stuff from that dossier, which we haven't reported any of the details on, trying to get that into the record. some were just making statements, knowing that the director wouldn't be able to answer. it's very possible there's nothing there, that it's all just circumstantial or just smoke, but no actual fire. you know intelligence well. this could go on for a very long time. >> this, anderson, is going to be a counterintelligence investigation that may or may not lead to criminal follow-up. and the problem with counterintelligence investigations is that they're very, very complicated. i would argue more complicated than most normal legal criminal investigations, because they deal with sensitive, secret information obtained in clandestine fashion that has to be dealt with on a multi-agency type of setting because you have the fbi has the mandate for domestic collection. but in this case, we're talking about, for example, russia. so you have cia and nsa who will
be involved in terms of collecting information to try to get to the bottom of whatever is going on. we just don't know yet. it may be counterespionage, it may be as you indicated, a lot of smoke and no fire. for having been involved in a couple counterintelligence matters myself, there seems to be a lot more smoke than -- there's gotta be something behind it. >> you believe that, as someone who's been involved in an investigation? >> if i were leading the investigation, i would say, look, i defer to the lawyers, and law enforcement on how to move it forward, but i think there's something here. >> were you surprised comey went as far as he did today? >> i was. >> i was too. >> i think we are out of touch. i think that the average person watching, number one, the average person didn't watch this hearing today. >> i know, but can we just stop that argument. because that argument is made all the time.
and if you use that argument, then nothing really matters. like the only thing that matters is someone's family life and their -- >> i'm not trying to shut down the argument with a phony wa i to shut it down. i sincerely think there was a time, 15 years ago, if a hearing like this had taken place, peter jennings, tom brokaw, they would have gone on. the country would have been in an uproar over these allegations, over this smoke. of course if there ever is a smoking gun that shows that president trump knew about this and was communicating with the russians, then it would be a big deal. but we live in a world now where people, donald trump gets away with so much, that there's the death of outrage. i think we're much more outraged than the average person. >> i don't argue with that, but that doesn't make it right. there are still facts and things that need to be investigated. >> right, but my point is that ultimately, when richard nixon, going back to the watergate thing, when richard nixon was
president, part of what forced him to resign was public pressure and pressure from members of congress. there was shame. there's no shame. >> but david, with watergate, there were a lot of people who stuck with nixon all the way through to the end. was it a ground swell, or was it republicans in congress who were holding hearings and finally it became untenable? >> it was a tidal event where public pressure did push. the republicans, to their credit, took the lead and went to president nixon and said, you've got to resign. >> this is going to be a very long process, as you've heard a number of people say. there's going to be more hearings, more information that comes out. people are going to start to tune in to what's happening here. and as the question is raised as to whether people associated with the president of the united states were working with a foreign government oop. >> if it came out that paul manafort did this, i could see donald trump being like, i had no idea, he didn't even work for
me. he was there three months. >> we gotta take a quick break. we'll continue this discussion. the president is speaking now, we're listening for any mention of the hearings. coming up next, we'll hear from congressman adam schiff, and later trey gowdy. we'll be right back. i am helping 8 million taxpayers get the largest refund they deserve. one million people can benefit from precision cancer care. 197 million passengers can fly with less turbulence. i am on my way to working with one billion people. i look forward to working with you. i am on my way to working with one billion people. discover new hydra genius by l'oreal. the genius of liquid care. daily hydration that's super lightweight with aloe vera 72 hours of intense and continuous hydration. new hydra genius daily liquid care from l'oreal paris.
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we were in a german dance group. i wore lederhosen. so i just started poking around on ancestry. then, i decided to have my dna tested through ancestry dna. it turns out i'm scottish. so, i traded in my lederhosen for a kilt. ♪ i noticed it as soon as we moved into the new house. a lot of people have vertical blinds. well, if a lot of people jumped off a bridge, would you? you hungry? i'm okay right -- i'm... i'm becoming my, uh, mother. it's been hard, but some of the stuff he says is actually pretty helpful. pumpkin, bundling our home and auto insurance is a good deal! like buying in bulk! that's fun, right? progressive can't protect you from becoming your parents, but we can protect your home and auto. welcome back. president trump just finished speaking. he did not make any reference to the hearings today. we were listening and going to
bring it to you live if he did. you heard the two competing story lines, democrats focusing on the criminal and counterintelligence probe between trump associates and russia. republicans putting the spotlight on the leaks. you'll hear from a leading member of the house investigates committee, trey gowdy. but first congressman adam schiff of california, thank you very much. before i start asking the congressman questions, i want to play a portion of his opening remarks today. let's listen. >> is it possible that the removal of the ukraine provision from the gop platform was a coincidence? is it a coincidence that jeff sessions failed to tell the senate about his meetings with the russian ambassador? is it a coincidence that michael flynn would lie about a conversation he had with the same russian ambassador about the most pressing issue facing both countries at the time they spoke, u.s. imposition of sanctions over russian hacking
of our election designed to help donald trump. is it a coincidence that john podesta would be hacked and have his private e-mails exposed? is it possible that all of these events and reports are completely unrelated, and nothing more than a entirely unhappy coincidence? yes, it is possible. but it is also possible, maybe more than possible that they are not coincidental, not disconnected, and not unrelated, and that the russians used the same techniques to corrupt u.s. persons that they employed in europe and elsewhere. we simply don't know. not yet. and we owe it to the country to find out. >> congressman schiff joins us now. thank you for being with us. long day for you. >> you bet. >> how do you reconcile that
comey said there was no information to support president trump's accusation against president obama, with the white house still standing by those claims? >> there's no way to reconcile it. i hope that once the director spoke and you had a source that was very much in a position to know of any basis that existed for this, that the president would say, okay, enough, i apologize, i shouldn't have said what i did. that was too much to hope for. one of two possibilities here, either the president is just fundamentally incapable of admitting error, or he can't discern fact from fiction and he's so vested in this now he truly believes it. that's probably a more frightening prospect. >> the other pushback from the white house today, they said, the nsa and fbi tell congress that russia did not influential electoral process. that was not true, the official
white house position on this was not true. and a million people responded saying, that's not true, that's not what director comey said. that tweet is still up there. >> and here's the problem, we saw some exact scenario played out when the unclassified assessment was published. the president then said, hey, look, the ic, the intelligence community says there was no impact on the election. that's not what the report said. that's not what the director said today. >> they said there was no evidence of russia beihacking i machines, affecting votes, but it's not in our purview to say whether it impacted people's decision-making. >> and it forced one candidate to continue to respond to leaked e-mails. we don't know whether it was decisive and what's more, it's just not the intelligence community's place to try to even figure that out. they made that clear. and for the president to say otherwise is just another falsehood labelled on falsehood. >> i heard from democrats today
who said director comey talked about an ongoing investigation against hillary clinton before the election based on testimony he gave today, this investigation into russia and the trump campaign was ongoing at that time, or before the election, late july, he could have said, oh, and there's this other investigation. a lot of democrats are saying, why would he say there's an investigation about hillary clinton, give testimony on it, and not say this investigation was under way? >> i think that criticism is perfectly valid. >> you think he should have? >> yes, and if he was going to talk about one, he needed to talk about both. he attempted to distinguish them today, but i don't buy it. he said the investigation involving hillary clinton was closed. he said this one was open. but he talked about the clinton e-mails 11 days and then two days before the election, was it closed then?
no, it's re-opened, or in some kind of a twilight stage. the reality is, there was a double standard employed here, and i don't think it can be justified. >> is there a reason you didn't press him on that today? >> you know, frankly, i'm not sure that there's much value to relitigating that question. i thought that that was the wrong judgment call at the time the director talked about that so close to the election. i thought that violated justice department policy, and i can't reconcile the approach he took there and his unwillingness, for example, to sign the attribution that the other intelligence community leaders signed on october 7th acknowledging that the russians were interfering. and that didn't even go to any trump campaign involvement. >> when congressman gowdy began naming obama officials, where do you think he was going with that, all in his line of questioning about the leak
regarding general flynn. i talked to congressman gowdy. he said he was not implying that any of those people were the people who leaked the information. he says, could have been, could have come from people in the trump white house. and he said, yeah, it could have. everybody he named was a democrat. do you think that's what he was implying? >> well, i think that up to the very last day of the trump administration, whenever that is, he will be blaming obama for something. and this is what he wants to do. he wants to say that the obama administration was responsible for the raid in yemen if it didn't go well. and the obama administration is responsible for all the leaks. the reality is, we don't know where the leaks are coming from, and they're probably coming from different sources and some of those sources may be in trump's own white house. so mr. gowdy could have just as well have said, did steve bannon know about this? did the white house counsel know about this? he could have named anyone in
the white house circle who were in position to have leaked this. maybe there was a product of a fight within the white house of people who wanted flynn out. i don't know. mr. gowdy didn't know. and i think the committee gop needs to be careful because that trail could lead them back to the white house. >> just briefly, were you pleased with how today went? just watching it as an observer, it did feel that there were two different committees, one republicans focusing on leaks, democrats focusing on russia and any possible connections. >> i mentioned this in the opening statement, that people were likely to hear us focus on different things, and that's perfectly fine. the most important thing is, we have come to agreement that we ought to look at all of these issues, ought to investigate all of them. i'm not trying to stop the republicans from investigating leaks, i take them seriously as well. i need to make sure they don't try to stop us from investigating any issues of
coordination with the trump campaign. so lothe chairman and i have signed an agreement about doing our jobs. and we can't allow one side or the other to wall off any legitimate inquiry. >> appreciate your time. we always like to hear from different sides of the aisle. just ahead we'll hear from congre congressman trey gowdy. ly one te a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. and now. i'm back! aleve pm for a better am.
moscow's ambassador to the u.s. their conversations were interpreted by american intelligence. gowdy ticked through a list of former obama officials who might have had access to that information. he started by asking director comey about james clapper. >> would he have access to an unmasked name? >> in some circumstances, sure, he was the director of national intelligence, but i'm not talking about the particular. >> would director brennan have access to an unmasked u.s. citizen's name? >> in some circumstances, yes. >> would susan rice have access to an unmasked u.s. citizen's name? >> yes, in general. and any other national security adviser would, i think, as a matter of their ordinary course of business. >> would former white house adviser ben rhodes have access to an unmasked u.s. citizen's name? >> i don't know the answer to that. >> would former attorney general loretta lynch have access to an unmasked u.s. citizen's name?
>> in general, yes, as would any attorney general. >> so that would also including acting a.g. sally yates? >> same answer. >> did you brief president obama on -- i'll just ask you. did you brief president obama on any calls involving michael flynn? >> i'm not going to get into either that particular case, that matter, or any conversations i had with the president. so i can't answer that. >> i spoke with congressman gowdy just before air time. >> congressman gowdy, you put a lot of focus on leaks, the anonymous sourcing that led to michael flynn being caught up in surveillance of the russian ambassador. do you think that's less important or more important as to whether the trump campaign coordinated with the russian government, or just russia's role in trying to influence the election? >> anderson, it's all important, which is why ied ask the chair
to give me additional time at the end, and he did, and i went through all of the other non-leak related matters. i can't tell you which one is more important like i can't tell you which one of my kids i love more. i'm a former criminal prosecutor, so it makes sense that i would be asked to pursue the potential criminality, but i covered all of it with my second line of questioning. >> at one point, you named several high ranking obama officials, and the former president himself, raising the suggestion perhaps, that it was one of them who were the source or multiple people who were the urs so of general flynn's communications, the leak being revealed? were you just floating that idea, or do you believe it was one of them? because a lot of democrats point to the fact it could have been somebody from the trump white house didn't want general flynn being the national security adviser? >> could have been anyone. so if anyone thinks i was floating an idea, i didn't ask
the question very artfully. we already established 20 different people at the nsa were in the unmasking trade. i had established previously with director comey in another setting, a number at the fbi, i went through the cia, i went through justice, and then i started with clapper, went to brennan, sally yates, whom i actually have a friendship with. so anyone who thinks that i was accusing the president of the united states of committing a crime is either drinking on the job or wasn't listening to the question very well. >> just to put a button on this, you're not suggesting president obama committed a crime. that is what president trump has accused him of in those early morning tweets he sent out two weeks ago. does that make sense to you? >> i used to accuse people of crimes for a living and i know how serious that accusation is, and it needs to be backed up by probable cause and a grand jury indictment. the president of the united
states i don't think can disseminate classified information because he's the final arbiter of what is classified. so i've got lots of policy differences with president obama. i have never accused him of committing a crime and would never do so unless i was a prosecutor and had a formal charging document. and even then i probably wouldn't do it publicly. >> in general about leaks, you know, there's obviously leaks have always gone on. comey or the nsa director today talked about reading over the weekend about washington complaining about leaks. your benghazi committee was accused of leaking your report to certain media outlets. republicans were accused by democrats and democrats were accused of leaking other information. is there a role for leaks? i mean, people point to watergate and deep throat, even michael flynn might still be the national security adviser today had that information not ultimately have leaked out?
>> well, anderson, there's a difference between leaks, that's a moral issue, whether or not -- you never hear me compliment wikileaks and julian assange. in fact, i can't believe republicans who compliment either one of them or did last summer. that's a moral issue at some level. the leaking of classified information, or the leaking of information that was acquired through another crime is a criminal matter. so it's not my job to judge folks in your line of work, whether or not you should rely on anonymous sources, i assume you have to for some things, but relying on anonymous sources and relying on classified information for which it is a felony to disseminate are two separate lanes of inquiry in my judgment. >> congressman, appreciate talking to you as always. >> yes, sir, thank you. much more to talk about ahead. president trump's official white house twitter account was live tweeting selectively the house intelligence hearing. one of those tweets was shot down in realtime by fbi director
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broadcast, it's been an extraordinary day. a sitting president called out by his fbi director in a public hearing. president trump tweeting some selections from today. firing off a string of tweets, one of which became part of the hearing when it was read to fbi director james comey and asked for a realtime fact check. the nsa and fbi tell congress that russia did not influence the electoral process? this tweet has gone out to millions of americans, 16.1 million to be exact. is it the tweet as i read it to you, is that accurate? >> it's hard for me to react to that. let me just tell you what we understand the state of what we've said is. we've offered no opinion, have no view on potential impact, because it's never something that we looked at. >> note to the white house,
don't live tweet something that's fake when there are hearings still going on and the person can be asked about their tweet. so, paul, as a democrat, who very clearly was working for hillary clinton, you clearly wish james comey and believe comey should have come forward earlier about this investigation? >> or shut up about the investigation about hillary. both candidates were under fbi investigation, but the fbi leaks endlessly about hillary's. and finally mr. comey himself while clearing hillary, put on a 60 or 90-minute imto meshl attacking her. which was astonishing. he said we don't talk about investigations even when they're over, because we don't want to smear people. so there's a lot of bitterness in this. but it was striking that a guy like comey stood there and called the president a liar. our president is a liar. he lies about small things, silly things. but this is about our allies in the uk, our closest allies in
great britain. this is about our former president. this is big stuff. we know he's a liar, we learned that today, according to the nsa director and the fbi director. and we know he's under federal investigation for potential collusion with a hostile foreign power. that's astonishing stuff. and for it to be coming from comey, it's extraordinary. >> i really did see it totally differently, and not getting talking points -- actually, they do send talking points, but i'm not using them. look, i was on a radio talk show in birmingham, alabama today, the richard dixon show, by name. and we were talking about the tweet, about wiretapping and all this sort of thing. and a host said to me, that he is talking to his audience, and he says, we speak american ease out here and we know what he meant, that somebody was surveilling him. he said, we get what he's saying and all you fancy people are
trying to take this in another direction. and i really do think, remember the old sherlock holmes business about the curious incident of the dog that didn't bark in the night. this town leaks like a sieve. if they gu fknew for a fact tha somebody colluded with the russians, we'd have known this months ago. all of these leaks that are coming out and this is not coming out. it's because i'm convinced there's no there there. >> you think the president didn't mean barack obama when he called him sick, and personally kind of attacked him, said it was mccarthyism and all the rest? >> i really do think that the president thinks that he has been under surveillance and -- >> but the fbi server at trump tower was looked at by the fbi. he believes there was some form
or fashion -- >> so he has to fire the head of the national security agency and fbi who today under oath said, no, he's wrong. right? >> and his own justice department. >> they said it's not true because maybe it's not. this is the problem. either he's nuts and delusional or he was under surveillance. >> what you're arguing then is the fbi and the justice department are mistaken for taking the president literally. because they don't speak american ease. because they're so part of washington that they are actually taking the president of the united states literally. >> i have to tell you, this is such a classic washington story. i mean, it's so -- >> oh, come on. >> i think that's totally wrong. look, i don't think that every person is following every aspect of the hearings. but you're under-valuing the intelligence of the american people if you don't think that they care about somebody's credibility or their honesty. >> and it's a washington story,
that's where the seat of government is, and this is about the government. leak, if i may, former obama - administration officials -- >> wait a second. >> the story's right there. >> what just happened in the hearing today that we just saw in the last interview? what i think was a little bit classless by congressman gowdy where he was listing names of people who no one has any proof has anything to do with this. >> the leaking story, if someone robbed a bank, let's say, that's wrong, that's bad. they should be punished. but if the police then don't read them the miranda rights and then abuse that person, we should also be very, very concerned about that. >> leaking is serious. >> it's a crime, and it's a crime that we shouldn't, you know, dismiss. [ all speak at once ] >> should deep throat have been arrested in watergate and sent to jail? >> for dealing in classified information? i don't recall that. >> sure, he was. leaking information. [ all speak at once ] >> and grand jury information. >> we don't want a world where
intelligence community members who are anonymous can leak information, to try to change the outcome of -- >> someone should go to jail for this. >> the leaking should be looked at, there's no question. we can all accept that. but it shouldn't be a tough call, and i don't think for most people it is a tough call about whether we should focus more on -- >> and also, the obama white house, with all due respect, they went after leakers -- >> true. [ all speak at once ] >> i'm not against leakers. >> i just want to go back to this question of the honesty of the president. we're going to be -- it's going to take a long time to investigate and figure out what actually happened between the russians and the folks around the president. but i must tell you, i think i think we crossed a threshold today. this is so obviously, boom, he wiretapped me, he's a bad guy. he's a sick guy, and the whole world had a chance to watch this unfold, and it was a direct test of his credibility. and the whole world now knows he lied about it, and his white
house is continuing to lie about it. and i just can't tell you how important trust is between the american people and the president. >> i wish we lived in the world that david gergen thinks we live in. i think it would be better. >> i'm sorry. one of the reasons people didn't vote for hillary clinton is they didn't trust her. trust matters. >> also the question is, maybe to your point, maybe it's not right now today, but others have made this point that down the road, months from now when the president stands up and says we have to go to war or launch this attack because this is what's happened, is there enough of a trust deficit? >> i would argue yes. >> lyndon johnson went down over this. he didn't have a credibility gap. he had a canyon. that's what's opening up here, and it makes a real difference in the capacity of a president. we've seen it again and again. when we have a president who is a congenital liar, it really matters.
>> unless, david, and we did have a president for eight years who said if you want your doctor you can keep it. >> do you believe this president of the united states is a congenital liar? >> no. >> do you believe he has lied repeatedly? >> no. >> i believe he's a liar. >> that electoral thing that you just mentioned, the electoral tweet, i think they are referring to the questions which we all saw where they asked, did this influence, do you have information about pennsylvania, ohio, wisconsin. >> that's not what the tweet said, the electoral process. >> that's part of the electoral process. >> no, it's not. come on, jeffrey. >> you don't think he's a liar. do you think he was wrong? >> look. >> on his obama tweets. >> sure. >> well, was he wrong in this particular instance? >> donald trump -- >> all of us accept for jeffrey would agree that he's a liar. jeffrey, jeffrey. >> i think you have a very good point there. we become desensitized.
sadly, we've arrived at the point of the death of outrage. >> maybe an optimistic note here. one thing that's good here today is we had institutions working to correct a white house that is out of control with misinformation. we had a fbi director that by all counts is doing a serious investigation here. as partisan as that congress is, you had republicans trying to get to the bottom of a factual issue, and people trying to get to the bottom of collusion with the russians. >> is there anybody in the president's orbit who is trying to speak the truth rather than a version of their -- >> i won't be as optimistic about the white house, but at least the fbi and republicans and democrats are genuinely trying to get to the bottom of this issue. up next, what trump supporters have to say. gary tuchman went to a rally in louisville where americanese is
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[student] i can just quit school and get a job. [ex student] daddy's here. [wife] hi [dad] hey buddy [son] hey dad [wife] i think we can do this. [chancellor] adam baily. [chancellor] adam baily. just moments ago, as we mentioned, donald trump wrapped up his campaign-style rally in louisville. our gary tuckman is in louisville to get their take. here's gary's report.
[cheers and applause] >> reporter: president trump wasn't set to arrive until the evening. but that didn't stop these ardent supporters from arriving very early in the morning. [cheers and applause] >> reporter: and mike carroll was near the front of the line. >> i've got a copy of march 1990 playboy interview with donald trump. >> reporter: he waited in line for hours in hopes of getting a trump autograph on that magazine. and while he was waiting, the fbi director was testifying on capitol hill. >> fbi is investigating if any crimes were committed. does that trouble you? >> it really doesn't. >> i look at it as a matter of, minor issue that i think is perpetuated by the media. >> reporter: also thinking it's minor, this miner. >> my papaw was a miner too. >> reporter: he says all the accusations against trump are unfair.
>> i think he's doing a great job. >> reporter: you don't think he's getting distracted? >> no, i don't think so. >> reporter: many think any russia links are not a problem. and have no problem with donald trump asking russia to find hillary clinton's missing e-mails. >> i think that all of our super powers in the world interfere with everybody's elections, and if by bringing out e-mails for someone as evil as hillary not being president, please bring it out. >> reporter: it's okay that donald trump said that, that he wanted russia to release those e-mails? >> absolutely. our media is so liberal in the united states, if our people aren't going to do it, let russia do it for us. >> reporter: meanwhile, the claim that he was wiretapped is still widely believed. no one's saying it. >> when the truth comes out, then what's everybody going to say? >> reporter: why isn't he presenting that evidence now? >> i think there's more to it than the public can know. and they've got to get
everything all together. >> reporter: do you think donald trump's involved in preparation to present this at some point? >> yes, mm-hm. i do believe that. >> reporter: one of the few trump supporters we found that is fine with the investigation is robert berry. >> otherwise there's no legitimacy. unless he lets himself be investigated fairly, everyone is going to keep saying it's true. if it turns out to be true, that would be bad and i would be very disappointed. >> reporter: what people are not disappointed with, two months into his presidency is donald trump's tenacity. what do you think his greatest accomplishment has been so far? >> i think standing up to the pressure he's received so far. he's got and tremendous headwind. >> reporter: you think that's his greatest accomplishment, dealing with the pressure as opposed to something more specific? >> i think he's delivering on a lot of his campaign promises already. >> reporter: what's the main one? >> the immigration, the movements he's made on immigration are important. >> reporter: the travel ban has been turned down by courts so far. >> some of that stuff's out of his hands.
>> you've been going to these campaign-style rallies since the president took office. do you notice anything in the last two months? >> reporter: as we've traveled around the country since inauguration day, we've certainly talked to trump voters who have concerns about the presidency. but here at the rallies, you have the most loyal trump voters, the loyalist of the loyal. and the enthusiasm we saw tonight matches or exceeds the enthusiasm i've seen at any rally before or after he became president. >> thanks very much, we appreciate all those folks talking to you. we have much more to tell you about on 360. including more breaking news on air travel, why some things are banned on flights to the u.s., things like computers and more. we'll tell you about that ahead. say goodbye to extra taxes and fees on your wireless bill... ...and hello to t-mobile one. right now, get two lines of unlimited data for a hundred bucks. taxes and fees included! two lines, a hundred dollars, all in, all unlimited. switch today.
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